US Democrats: yes, fellow lefties, we must fight for everybody to be equal in dignity and participation, so nobody is left behind! Equal rights! Free market in function of human dignity!
The left: Who are this people?
Social democrats: I’m sorry friend, but the left must build a social safety net trough institutions and the state to help everybody to have the best life posible allowing the private enterprise to flourish as part of human desire, but not as nuclear aspect of the good life.
Marxist-Leninist : flourish the WHAT? Oh no, we must take the means of production so the social results of the industry goes directly in benefits of the workers! We need a vanguard that guide the proletarian masses to liberation from the shackles of exploitation. Up with the soviets! Eventually the State will go too!
M-Stalinist: Yes, and only throught a strong state that can disolve the classes and allow the mass to emerge we can achieve a nation capable of go side to side in the competition against capitalism ideology! So, sorry friends, but soviets must go in favor of the party state
Juche-Marxist: Of course, but that is short sighted. If the nation can’t self produce their existence, we will always be at mercy of the capitalist class. Strong army, Strong Country, Strong Industry!
Anarchists: WTF are you all talking about, you class traitors! You are changing a dominant class for another! The State must be dissolve now! It won’t grow itself out of existence!
Anarcho-syndicalists: yes! All power to the unions! The workers must own the means of production in a direct way! Only then exploitation will disappear!
Anarcho-mutualists: But only if the economic system as a whole goes into workers hands. The banks must be comunitary owned! That way riches can go to everybody!
Anarcho communists: Are you all mad? While there is money it can be hoarded! If it can be hoarded then the condition for exploitation remains when a new rich emerges to become a new bourgeois!
Anarcho feminists: Can we all stop this darn dammit class reduction! Gender oppression is the base of this all! Even if capitalism is abolish the men will keep opression over all other genders!
Anarcho primitivists: I’m sorry, but if the planet burns to ashes no liberation will happen. We need to destroy the industrial society if we want a chance for any kind of Utopia and return to a gatherer past where all sentients creatures can be free. To stop in gender is short sighted!
Everybody else: destroy THE WHAT???
Anarcho transhumanists: ehm… Sorry, no. Technology is the base that will allows us to get to a post scarcity society where we can transcend human condition and become something else that will reach a true Utopia where anyone can be anything being the universe the only cap for dreaming.
Everybody else: transcend the WHAT???
Yeah…
But, you know… Is just some differences that can be worked out
Edit: I just realized I replied to a one year old post. But I’ll leave it. I mostly post to structure my own thoughts anyway.
I like how you framed this as a dialogue and I appreciate the humor.
A lot of this is mere ideology. What matters is what can actually be done right now. We can’t transcend anything right now, we can’t even defeat the state right now. All this talk just distracts from our actual class position. Of course left unity matters only to people who are actually out there and organizing. And among those people, it’s actually very popular. Everyone else won’t ever effect anything anyway and might as well continue playing word games.
Mentally putting yourself in a position of power, where you can ponder about what to do with technology and the state on a global scale is not just illusory. It’s a consequence of capitalist hegemony. Which is the generalization of particular interests of the ruling classes. Arguing from this imagined top down position is inevitably arguing from the position of the currently existing ruling class. Ironic, how anarchists are totally no less guilty of this. That’s why capitalists class interests sneak in. Like splitting left unity. That’s why liberal ideology sneaks in. Like: “We should do this or that, for any number of normative ethical reasons.” Marx and Engels never engaged in this. They knew that morals and societies evolve dialecticaly from the historical, material conditions. We won’t know what the future looks like until we win it. Together.
US Democrats: yes, fellow lefties, we must fight for everybody to be equal in dignity and participation, so nobody is left behind! Equal rights! Free market in function of human dignity!
The left: Who are this people?
Social democrats: I’m sorry friend, but the left must build a social safety net trough institutions and the state to help everybody to have the best life posible allowing the private enterprise to flourish as part of human desire, but not as nuclear aspect of the good life.
Marxist-Leninist : flourish the WHAT? Oh no, we must take the means of production so the social results of the industry goes directly in benefits of the workers! We need a vanguard that guide the proletarian masses to liberation from the shackles of exploitation. Up with the soviets! Eventually the State will go too!
M-Stalinist: Yes, and only throught a strong state that can disolve the classes and allow the mass to emerge we can achieve a nation capable of go side to side in the competition against capitalism ideology! So, sorry friends, but soviets must go in favor of the party state
Juche-Marxist: Of course, but that is short sighted. If the nation can’t self produce their existence, we will always be at mercy of the capitalist class. Strong army, Strong Country, Strong Industry!
Anarchists: WTF are you all talking about, you class traitors! You are changing a dominant class for another! The State must be dissolve now! It won’t grow itself out of existence!
Anarcho-syndicalists: yes! All power to the unions! The workers must own the means of production in a direct way! Only then exploitation will disappear!
Anarcho-mutualists: But only if the economic system as a whole goes into workers hands. The banks must be comunitary owned! That way riches can go to everybody!
Anarcho communists: Are you all mad? While there is money it can be hoarded! If it can be hoarded then the condition for exploitation remains when a new rich emerges to become a new bourgeois!
Anarcho feminists: Can we all stop this darn dammit class reduction! Gender oppression is the base of this all! Even if capitalism is abolish the men will keep opression over all other genders!
Anarcho primitivists: I’m sorry, but if the planet burns to ashes no liberation will happen. We need to destroy the industrial society if we want a chance for any kind of Utopia and return to a gatherer past where all sentients creatures can be free. To stop in gender is short sighted!
Everybody else: destroy THE WHAT???
Anarcho transhumanists: ehm… Sorry, no. Technology is the base that will allows us to get to a post scarcity society where we can transcend human condition and become something else that will reach a true Utopia where anyone can be anything being the universe the only cap for dreaming.
Everybody else: transcend the WHAT???
Yeah…
But, you know… Is just some differences that can be worked out
Left unity! Yey!
Fewer than we have with the right. But yeah, let’s just stay in our own silos, I’m sure that’ll help us all achieve what we want.
This is sort of relevant here:
Edit: I just realized I replied to a one year old post. But I’ll leave it. I mostly post to structure my own thoughts anyway.
I like how you framed this as a dialogue and I appreciate the humor. A lot of this is mere ideology. What matters is what can actually be done right now. We can’t transcend anything right now, we can’t even defeat the state right now. All this talk just distracts from our actual class position. Of course left unity matters only to people who are actually out there and organizing. And among those people, it’s actually very popular. Everyone else won’t ever effect anything anyway and might as well continue playing word games.
Mentally putting yourself in a position of power, where you can ponder about what to do with technology and the state on a global scale is not just illusory. It’s a consequence of capitalist hegemony. Which is the generalization of particular interests of the ruling classes. Arguing from this imagined top down position is inevitably arguing from the position of the currently existing ruling class. Ironic, how anarchists are totally no less guilty of this. That’s why capitalists class interests sneak in. Like splitting left unity. That’s why liberal ideology sneaks in. Like: “We should do this or that, for any number of normative ethical reasons.” Marx and Engels never engaged in this. They knew that morals and societies evolve dialecticaly from the historical, material conditions. We won’t know what the future looks like until we win it. Together.