I have to say, reading all those comments during the last two days here, I also don’t get the impression that the left are eager to unite the US again…
Please, get your shit together over there. BOTH sides.
You mean kids who get bullied don’t want to play with their bullies who will keep bullying them?
Because that’s what you are proposing with your “BOTH sides” fallacy. When one sides platform is to destroy every other side, there is no “uniting” with them. Republicans are not interested in coalitions, compromises, science, evidence, inclusion, equity, reason, logic, democracy, or diplomacy. They have become fascist by every definition and care only for domination and subjugation. In what ways can anyone contend with something like that? You know the answer, even if you aren’t ready to admit it yet.
Nothing drastic necessary, just a lot of little steps:
Step by step establishing a normal dialog again.
Something drastic would be a civil war, and that would also not unite you instantly again, but just would let you reconsider the tiny-step-by-tiny-step talking-to-each-other-thing from a different perspective again.
Please don’t choose the drastic way. Also because the rest of the world still relies on you too much (speaking as someone from outside the US)
Have you ever had a long conversation with a Trumper? I don’t think you have. And I speak up for Trump voters a lot more than I should because I know some women I care about who aren’t deep thinkers and who follow the men who surround and control their lives. I’ve gotten them to bend ever so slightly on some things.
But the method you’re suggesting is not viable at this stage.
**They’re on to “this is good vs evil” and guess who’s evil? Not them. It’s game set match. I don’t think we’re coming back now and I’m normally toxically optimistic on this topic. **
I’ve been trying to wear down Trump supporters in various arenas for years. You can get them to come almost to a rational conclusion then they get their MAGA propoganda update and it’s back to square one. And they all seem to get their upload at the same time which I’m still trying to figure that one out. And it’s not Trump himself because they don’t actually listen directly to Trump. But they’ll all magically have the same talking points and claim to be first hand account eye witnesses of whatever said phenomenon is. Which is wild bc they all sound like broken records and swear they saw X y z with their own eyes. Which is clear bullshit for anyone who confronts multiple of them from work to school to the bar to family get togethers. They all saw those litter boxes with their own eyes (it was their kid, their niece, their friends kids school) and they all saw the Venezuelan gangs roaming the streets. They were there! They saw it!!! It was in (name their nearest city)!!! Just to name a few examples.
I challenge you to sit down and have the small conversations you’re advocating for with a Trump voter. Really sit and listen to them. No confrontation, no arguing your point. Just listen to them. You’ll understand what I mean. But this new “good vs evil” is final stage stuff. We’re cooked.
I challenge you to sit down and have the small conversations you’re advocating for with a Trump voter. Really sit and listen to them. No confrontation, no arguing your point. Just listen to them. You’ll understand what I mean. But this new “good vs evil” is final stage stuff. We’re cooked.
The talking points downloads are not new - at least since back when Ronnie Raygun got rid of the Fairness Doctrine and hate radio and, later, Faux News, came on the scene, you’d hear them all saying the same shit. This was well under way by the mid-90s.
The nutpicking strategy is used by elites that run things like hate radio/Faux News - gives them their newest outrage strawman to rail against, so you’ll see evidence of that everywhere once you know what is happening.
And the “good vs. evil” thing - goes back to at least Newt and teaching others to do it. He had teaching materials way back in the early 90s, instructing all the nasty things to label their “enemies” with, while calling Confederates all the nice words.
The road to hell was paved by cons starting at least under Ronnie Raygun in the 80s, with Newt and his GOPAC really accelerating things in the 90s. Taco is only the latest symptom and like everything else in his life, he didn’t build shit, but slapped his stupid gaudy brand on it.
I absolutely agree with that and can see it. People think when Trump disappears things will improve but I am very skeptical on that front. He’s a very natural conclusion to a long line of dominos. I don’t know what’s next but I’m almost more scared someone competent will step into his place. We can’t even handle the incompetent megalomaniac, what happens when someone intelligent and calculating takes his place?
I am only exhibiting that specific rational-humane dimension currently because I have the feeling, that Lemmy is too much of an left echo chamber at the moment drifting to much into extreme territory.
That doesn’t solve anything, but is part of the problem.
As is the same process on platforms like truth.social. Just the other way round.
I am actually part of what is trying to bring another (and be it just a single…) additional dimension to a currently totally one-dimensional discourse.
Do you have any idea what’s actually going on? Or are you going based on your feels? Lemmy isn’t America, and America isn’t Lemmy, so this being an echo chamber (which it isn’t) is moot and has nothing to do with our current situation in the US. You seem hell bent on this thread to really both sides this and imply the left is responsible for the shooting and ignoring everything the right has and will do. And if you think your simple solutions are the way then why the fuck hasn’t it worked in the past almost 11 years at this point?
Just consider if escalating to the next stage is the right response. You are still a democracy. Use that power. Talk to people. Normal people, not crazies on the internet. And also don’t become crazies on the internet yourself. You have a lot of leverage now with all that shit which is going on as arguments to make people reconsider.
No one is talking about escalation. It’s simply an acknowledgement that when “ONE SIDE” is constantly talking about civil war and killing the other side…there are going to be people that react to that as if it’s a valid threat. The problem stems from the provocation…not the response. The response is inevitable. The provocation is not.
It doesn’t matter that everyone on the left has been advocating for restraint this entire time, and calling out folks on the right for their obviously inflammatory rhetoric. The instant someone pushes back, the right is going to clutch their pearls and claim to be the victim of “radical left-wing violence”. This is by design. It is intentional, and it is transparently disingenuous.
Feeding into this narrative, just because people are not showing enough sympathy for an objectively terrible person, is not helpful. people on the left are venting their frustrations…but they aren’t the ones calling for an escalation to the violence. That is, and always has been, coming from the right. Even now.
We’ve never had a Democratic president or prominent politician say “I couldn’t care less about uniting the country” and demonizing the other side like they do.
But I have the impression that I am watching it becoming a “both sides issue” in realtime… I don’t like that.
Don’t give up your humanitarian values just because parts of the other side do.
We spent a long time trying to unilaterally declare peace and people like Kirk stood ardently against those efforts. We begged, we pleaded, we disproved, we mocked. When we reached out a hand it was treated as weakness. When we offered their proposals they called it communism. Biden was our compromise candidate, Harris campaigned hard on reaching across the aisle. Now the right has military occupation of multiple American cities, as opposed to just the paramilitary occupation they had in the past few years.
So right now yeah we won’t lionize him, we won’t miss him. He was, as they say, no angel.
When the right wing is ready to unify we can start talking.
Trans people, immigrants, and other marginalized groups are under attack and are losing freedoms and rights that other people in this country are afforded.
It’s not even pushing ideologies; they’re no longer allowed to exist in America.
It’s hard to see eye-to-eye with these people when they’re kidnapping my neighbors and taking away healthcare from my cousins.
Perhaps people draw different clues from the same events and it is good to hear them to see which options there are.
And one clue if have is that one of the reasons why things are as they are is that people are too much enclosed inside their own bubbly echo chambers nowadays.
I am not part of your bubble and yet I am talking to you. And that is a good thing.
No shit, we are past the point of trying to talk. We’ve been trying to talk even before 2016, and no progress has ever been made. The right lives in their own eco chamber and are the ones who have been bloodthirsty for years. There is still no evidence or motive on the shooting. They are calling for blood even before actual evidence is shown, and you’re telling us we need to talk it out? Fuck you for your insensitivity and fuck you for giving the right a pass like they always get. You know nothing, and it’s best if you just butted out.
Maybe after immediately getting blamed for something some Utah minister’s son did might have people on the left seeing it’s the president and his ilk that need the correction. But you’d know that from paying attention, right? Right. You seem very right.
There appears to be no compromise or common ground. It feels inevitable that tensions will continue to worsen. Current leadership is immune to protests, and actively pursuing every measure to usurp the rule of law. There is no one to whom one can appeal. Wishing for diplomatic heroes, because it feels hopeless.
That sounds depressing. But you are still a strong democracy, with powerful and largely intact barriers against fascism.
Yes, fight fascism. But perhaps in the democratic and humane way the Constitution envisioned.
Rotflmao. What barriers against fascism are left ? All arms of govt have been seized, the courts, congress & presidency. The military are taking illegal orders so that’s gone, and the majority of the police have always been fash.
There’s a couple of pockets clinging on like Titantic survivors grasping flotsam but they’ll lose their grip and go under soon.
Thought about that myself some time ago… Techno-liberal westcoast, Traditional-urban eastcoast and Religious-rural center, each a own sub-country…
But I also don’t think that would be a good thing, because that would just increase the pressure on the respective minorities in each part.
No, my biggest hope is that they keep their stuff together at least somewhat civilized until the Trump era is over and then manage to figure out some common grounds again…
Hah, I’m in the center (at least compared to the self-identified leftists here) and even I’m not eager to unite with either the people to my right or the people to my left. I’m willing to tolerate in order to preserve democracy and the rule of law, but I don’t see how to unite with people whose goals for this country are incompatible with my own. I do think that tolerance would be sufficient if everyone did it - people in the past sometimes managed to attain peace that way even when they still hated each other, because they were exhausted by conflict. But the conflict here may still just be beginning and people aren’t exhausted yet.
I have to say, reading all those comments during the last two days here, I also don’t get the impression that the left are eager to unite the US again…
Please, get your shit together over there. BOTH sides.
You mean kids who get bullied don’t want to play with their bullies who will keep bullying them?
Because that’s what you are proposing with your “BOTH sides” fallacy. When one sides platform is to destroy every other side, there is no “uniting” with them. Republicans are not interested in coalitions, compromises, science, evidence, inclusion, equity, reason, logic, democracy, or diplomacy. They have become fascist by every definition and care only for domination and subjugation. In what ways can anyone contend with something like that? You know the answer, even if you aren’t ready to admit it yet.
Something drastic would have to change to unite people with the people who want them dead.
Nothing drastic necessary, just a lot of little steps:
Step by step establishing a normal dialog again.
Something drastic would be a civil war, and that would also not unite you instantly again, but just would let you reconsider the tiny-step-by-tiny-step talking-to-each-other-thing from a different perspective again.
Please don’t choose the drastic way. Also because the rest of the world still relies on you too much (speaking as someone from outside the US)
Have you ever had a long conversation with a Trumper? I don’t think you have. And I speak up for Trump voters a lot more than I should because I know some women I care about who aren’t deep thinkers and who follow the men who surround and control their lives. I’ve gotten them to bend ever so slightly on some things.
But the method you’re suggesting is not viable at this stage.
**They’re on to “this is good vs evil” and guess who’s evil? Not them. It’s game set match. I don’t think we’re coming back now and I’m normally toxically optimistic on this topic. **
I’ve been trying to wear down Trump supporters in various arenas for years. You can get them to come almost to a rational conclusion then they get their MAGA propoganda update and it’s back to square one. And they all seem to get their upload at the same time which I’m still trying to figure that one out. And it’s not Trump himself because they don’t actually listen directly to Trump. But they’ll all magically have the same talking points and claim to be first hand account eye witnesses of whatever said phenomenon is. Which is wild bc they all sound like broken records and swear they saw X y z with their own eyes. Which is clear bullshit for anyone who confronts multiple of them from work to school to the bar to family get togethers. They all saw those litter boxes with their own eyes (it was their kid, their niece, their friends kids school) and they all saw the Venezuelan gangs roaming the streets. They were there! They saw it!!! It was in (name their nearest city)!!! Just to name a few examples.
I challenge you to sit down and have the small conversations you’re advocating for with a Trump voter. Really sit and listen to them. No confrontation, no arguing your point. Just listen to them. You’ll understand what I mean. But this new “good vs evil” is final stage stuff. We’re cooked.
The talking points downloads are not new - at least since back when Ronnie Raygun got rid of the Fairness Doctrine and hate radio and, later, Faux News, came on the scene, you’d hear them all saying the same shit. This was well under way by the mid-90s.
The nutpicking strategy is used by elites that run things like hate radio/Faux News - gives them their newest outrage strawman to rail against, so you’ll see evidence of that everywhere once you know what is happening.
And the “good vs. evil” thing - goes back to at least Newt and teaching others to do it. He had teaching materials way back in the early 90s, instructing all the nasty things to label their “enemies” with, while calling Confederates all the nice words.
The road to hell was paved by cons starting at least under Ronnie Raygun in the 80s, with Newt and his GOPAC really accelerating things in the 90s. Taco is only the latest symptom and like everything else in his life, he didn’t build shit, but slapped his stupid gaudy brand on it.
I absolutely agree with that and can see it. People think when Trump disappears things will improve but I am very skeptical on that front. He’s a very natural conclusion to a long line of dominos. I don’t know what’s next but I’m almost more scared someone competent will step into his place. We can’t even handle the incompetent megalomaniac, what happens when someone intelligent and calculating takes his place?
You should be a diplomat. You’d bring world peace with your one-dimensional logic.
I am only exhibiting that specific rational-humane dimension currently because I have the feeling, that Lemmy is too much of an left echo chamber at the moment drifting to much into extreme territory.
That doesn’t solve anything, but is part of the problem.
As is the same process on platforms like truth.social. Just the other way round.
I am actually part of what is trying to bring another (and be it just a single…) additional dimension to a currently totally one-dimensional discourse.
Do you have any idea what’s actually going on? Or are you going based on your feels? Lemmy isn’t America, and America isn’t Lemmy, so this being an echo chamber (which it isn’t) is moot and has nothing to do with our current situation in the US. You seem hell bent on this thread to really both sides this and imply the left is responsible for the shooting and ignoring everything the right has and will do. And if you think your simple solutions are the way then why the fuck hasn’t it worked in the past almost 11 years at this point?
Yeah, trans people need to get their shit together and just let the right persecute and ultimately kill them all.
For at least the last 6 years, the right has been threatening civil war and lynch mobs, over every little issue…imaginary or otherwise.
It wasn’t “both sides”, until they started sending in masked gestapo to start rounding folks up and throwing them in camps.
Wake the fuck up.
Just consider if escalating to the next stage is the right response. You are still a democracy. Use that power. Talk to people. Normal people, not crazies on the internet. And also don’t become crazies on the internet yourself. You have a lot of leverage now with all that shit which is going on as arguments to make people reconsider.
No one is talking about escalation. It’s simply an acknowledgement that when “ONE SIDE” is constantly talking about civil war and killing the other side…there are going to be people that react to that as if it’s a valid threat. The problem stems from the provocation…not the response. The response is inevitable. The provocation is not.
It doesn’t matter that everyone on the left has been advocating for restraint this entire time, and calling out folks on the right for their obviously inflammatory rhetoric. The instant someone pushes back, the right is going to clutch their pearls and claim to be the victim of “radical left-wing violence”. This is by design. It is intentional, and it is transparently disingenuous.
Feeding into this narrative, just because people are not showing enough sympathy for an objectively terrible person, is not helpful. people on the left are venting their frustrations…but they aren’t the ones calling for an escalation to the violence. That is, and always has been, coming from the right. Even now.
We’ve never had a Democratic president or prominent politician say “I couldn’t care less about uniting the country” and demonizing the other side like they do.
This isn’t a “both sides” issue.
But I have the impression that I am watching it becoming a “both sides issue” in realtime… I don’t like that.
Don’t give up your humanitarian values just because parts of the other side do.
We spent a long time trying to unilaterally declare peace and people like Kirk stood ardently against those efforts. We begged, we pleaded, we disproved, we mocked. When we reached out a hand it was treated as weakness. When we offered their proposals they called it communism. Biden was our compromise candidate, Harris campaigned hard on reaching across the aisle. Now the right has military occupation of multiple American cities, as opposed to just the paramilitary occupation they had in the past few years.
So right now yeah we won’t lionize him, we won’t miss him. He was, as they say, no angel.
When the right wing is ready to unify we can start talking.
This. We’ve begged our attacker to see our humanity and it’s only emboldened them.
And your impression is absolutely wrong. Again, if you have no idea what’s going on, don’t comment. You’ll only inflam things.
Trans people, immigrants, and other marginalized groups are under attack and are losing freedoms and rights that other people in this country are afforded.
It’s not even pushing ideologies; they’re no longer allowed to exist in America.
It’s hard to see eye-to-eye with these people when they’re kidnapping my neighbors and taking away healthcare from my cousins.
Sorry for not trying to find common ground with fascists, that’s on me.
If you don’t have a clue on why things are the way they are, maybe don’t comment on it?
Perhaps people draw different clues from the same events and it is good to hear them to see which options there are.
And one clue if have is that one of the reasons why things are as they are is that people are too much enclosed inside their own bubbly echo chambers nowadays.
I am not part of your bubble and yet I am talking to you. And that is a good thing.
No shit, we are past the point of trying to talk. We’ve been trying to talk even before 2016, and no progress has ever been made. The right lives in their own eco chamber and are the ones who have been bloodthirsty for years. There is still no evidence or motive on the shooting. They are calling for blood even before actual evidence is shown, and you’re telling us we need to talk it out? Fuck you for your insensitivity and fuck you for giving the right a pass like they always get. You know nothing, and it’s best if you just butted out.
Maybe after immediately getting blamed for something some Utah minister’s son did might have people on the left seeing it’s the president and his ilk that need the correction. But you’d know that from paying attention, right? Right. You seem very right.
The left has been trying to unite since 1950. Arguably since the Civil War lol. Look how well that works.
There appears to be no compromise or common ground. It feels inevitable that tensions will continue to worsen. Current leadership is immune to protests, and actively pursuing every measure to usurp the rule of law. There is no one to whom one can appeal. Wishing for diplomatic heroes, because it feels hopeless.
That sounds depressing. But you are still a strong democracy, with powerful and largely intact barriers against fascism. Yes, fight fascism. But perhaps in the democratic and humane way the Constitution envisioned.
Rotflmao. What barriers against fascism are left ? All arms of govt have been seized, the courts, congress & presidency. The military are taking illegal orders so that’s gone, and the majority of the police have always been fash.
There’s a couple of pockets clinging on like Titantic survivors grasping flotsam but they’ll lose their grip and go under soon.
At this point the best for them would be if they managed to peacefully balkanize.
Thought about that myself some time ago… Techno-liberal westcoast, Traditional-urban eastcoast and Religious-rural center, each a own sub-country… But I also don’t think that would be a good thing, because that would just increase the pressure on the respective minorities in each part. No, my biggest hope is that they keep their stuff together at least somewhat civilized until the Trump era is over and then manage to figure out some common grounds again…
Hah, I’m in the center (at least compared to the self-identified leftists here) and even I’m not eager to unite with either the people to my right or the people to my left. I’m willing to tolerate in order to preserve democracy and the rule of law, but I don’t see how to unite with people whose goals for this country are incompatible with my own. I do think that tolerance would be sufficient if everyone did it - people in the past sometimes managed to attain peace that way even when they still hated each other, because they were exhausted by conflict. But the conflict here may still just be beginning and people aren’t exhausted yet.