I see your point, however, the Democratic party is not fascist. It does provide a clear difference from the GOP. Wether we like it or not, USA is a two party system. We need to be practical here, not ideological, or we just go fascist forever.
Better not try then…
The Democrats used to be the racist pro slavery party. Then it got captured and turned into Roosevelts New Deal Democrats, which were obviously to the left of the Republicans. Not perfect, but they really did a lot of good.
This can be repeated, but it takes a lot of work.
I gladly note, that maker of this propaganda meme is fuckin stupid xD
Not saying capitalism is the best form, but which economic form is better given human greed and tendency for corruption?
The fact people are greedy is not the reason pure socialism/communism fails, there’s a multitude of reasons it simply doesn’t work well: a lack of market forces upending resource allocation, incentive problems, lack of consumer sovereignty, reduced innovation++
Best system IMO is a fusion model, publically owned industries where it matters (health, education, PT), and private where it doesn’t (goods, foods etc).
The Republicans move politics to the right by passing bills, and the Democrats block movement to the left by losing on purpose.
It’s not the democratic party, it’s the US itself that is rotten. The dem are just another manifestation of the issue.
If you mean our government, hard agree.
This is a right-wing troll talking point. Don’t listen to it.
Go to the Democratic primaries and move the party left. And then, no matter who gets the nomination, vote Dem in the general election. This is exactly what the nazis did to move the GOP to the right and it worked great for them, and it’s something we can emulate.
Yeah, not listening to this defeatist garbage. The Democratic party has been changed before. It will be changed again. The party is not defined by some monolithic ideology. We need massive electoral reform in the US to ensure elections are actually fair. First past the post is problematic. House and Senate functions are problematic. We need a solution to the two party problem, but until then, our vehicle is the Democratic party. Best to make it do what we want it to rather than just give up because “they’re corporatists”.
Yeah, not listening to this defeatist garbage.
Defeatism is thinking the only option you have is playing by the rules the bourgeoisie instated, not “stop believing in a corrupt party”
Unlike you, we believe in multiple options. We’re trying to move the Dems to the left AND pushing for electoral reform AND planning an armed communist revolution.
And you’re just whining
What is the point of this meme? I feel like the only thing this can produce is people to not try to reform and improve the democratic party and take it over (like the tea party took over the republicans). Kind of like these “give up climate change it can’t be stopped” posts that just benefits the big fossil fuels companies
That’s the point, I’ve noticed a lot of the loudest, most active posters on Lemmy ultimately want one thing, which is progressives not to vote. Weird how that’s what the conservatives have relied on for every presidential victory they’ve achieved in the past half century or more.
Votes are earned not freely given. Your vote is your voice. Definitely vote at the local and state levels where your voice can be the loudest.
And if you only want to give half a vote, give it to Trump and JD.
(Because not voting is very similar to half a vote for the other guy.)
(Because not voting is very similar to half a vote for the other guy.)
Not voting wasn’t a vote for Trump. Did not voting for Trump mean a vote for Harris?
You should not attempt to reform something which is not reformable. Instead start something new.
In general, you should not reform. Revolution is the way forward.
Easy to say from your parents basement.
Instead of projection, try self-reflection.
We need to capture the dems and turn them into a socialist party, just like the fascists captured the reps and turned them into a anti-worker. I spent way too long in the army to have the illusion that the american people are capable of changing anything through other means. It will not happen.
Not to be ignorant but I highly doubt you have the training, funding, or even the intestinal fortitude to do any of the things a revolution would entail. I also think that if you did find the courage it wouldn’t matter because when they drop a non-explosive shredder warhead through your window it’s all over. You have no idea what your asking people to do when there is a better way.
This reform is simply not possible. You cannot use the same methods as the far right and expect the same result but for a different ideology. They work differently, they’re based on different systems and beliefs.
And you seriously underestimate the power of revolutionary warfare. Technological advances in military warfare have made things harder, but not impossible. In 93 Russians were in the streets fighting the Russian military to overthrow Yeltsin. They had the courage, even without the military training. On Vietnam a nation and it’s people successfully defended their freedom against a technologically superior army. And I don’t think I need to list how many coups and revolutions have appeared over the past 100 years. You can’t think it’s impossible looking at history.
I am no billionaire able to fund a milita, nor am I a general. But when the time arises or rather if it arises while I live, I do have the zeal to kill and die for what I believe in.
No, as I said I was in the military for almost a decade. I promise you I’m way more versed in the art of turning people into fertilizer than you ever will be. 1993 was 30 some years ago. The techg for killing people has improved drastically. You have no idea how many ways the US has to kill you. I saw things in 2005 that would still blow your mind.
Technological advances do not change societal upheaval.
Revolutions don’t fight the military in symmetrical warfare.
Militaries can defect, they can be sabotaged, their bases besieged, their supply lines disrupted, their forces stretched too thin, etc.
In ideal circumstances no revolution would have to fight one united military. Parts would defect or declare neutrality. Those who fight have finite supply and finances. What will a soldier do when he runs out of bullets and more importantly rations?
But in the absolute worst case, it will either lead to a more bloody victory or the military would have to literally depopulate the country with lethal force to establish their rule.
Also the 90s are not so far from your 2005. The majority of the military equipment Russia uses today in Ukraine is the same as during the Black October in 93.
While I mostly agree with this, I have one significant hurdle I am unable to overcome. What other choice do I have?
I can’t stand most Democrats. They suck! But they are a far cry better than voting Republican. And voting for a third party feels like wasting my vote.
If there was a third party candidate that focused on climate change and social issues and had even the slightest chance of winning, I would vote for them in a second. Until then, I am stuck voting for the lesser of two evils.
It may not be worth the effort to reform it, but claiming that it “can’t” be reformed is asinine. A political party is not some higher order being, timeless and unchanging, nor even one with a fundamental permanent set of core tenants that all else springs from. It’s a group of people with a bit of bureaucracy that influence and decide somewhat collectively on their shared goals. Of course that can change fundamentally.
In fact it has changed fundamentally in the not too distant past. Look at the Democratic party (and the Republican party) of the Jim Crow era compared to today. They essentially flipped to the other side of the political spectrum. It’s absolutely not easy to change a party fundamentally and not quick to do so, either. Old minds are not easily swayed with the times. The primary way to change party ideals is through new minds and perspectives joining the party and the old ones leaving it. Generational change is slow AF but it does definitely happen. Concerted effort for young people with new ideals to join the party is the best way to induce this change. Again though, that is a lot of effort and takes times. The bigger he ship, the harder to steer. There are alternatives, all of which also take a ton of effort, probably a lot more effort really, but might be faster if it works out.
I don’t know why we keep having to have this talk about why reformism doesn’t work. Rosa Luxembourg addressed this pretty well.
We aren’t likely to get Reformations, the problems with the Democratic party are baked directly in to the institution.
Anything offered as Reformation is a token to ensure that the masses don’t revolt at least until the Reformation can be clawrd back by the powers that be.
We aren’t likely to get Reformations, the problems with the Democratic party are baked directly in to the institution.
What’s the difference between the Democratic party and the United States of America in this regard? If the Democrats can’t be reformed, why can the USA be reformed? If the USA can’t be reformed, then what’s the point of this discussion?
Well theoretical the DNC is not baked directly into the government and continues its stranglehold by trying to kill all 3rdparty prospects pretty aggressively.
If a group was able to pull it off and build a completely new political party it could change the fabric of the government the same way MAGA is now however this is not Reformation. Its a soft power Revolution similar to what happened with Adelle in Chile.
I mean functional what’s occurring with the Trump administration is a soft power revolution.
The point of this discussion is to encourage people to put down the DNC in favor of other organizations like local ones that actually benefit the community by helping the impoverished or to look at other organizations like the DSA or PSL or FSRO which at least help encourage people to learn anarchist or Marxist theory which is significantly better at predicting and helping people navigate the political landscape then the neoliberal theory that lead us here in the first place.
Well theoretical the DNC is not baked directly into the government and continues its stranglehold by trying to kill all 3rdparty prospects pretty aggressively.
No, it’s not aggressive at all in trying to kill 3rd parties. That’s because 3rd parties aren’t a threat to power in this country. It uses 3rd parties as an excuse for their losses, and uses that to go after the left (something it does do aggressively).
Its a soft power Revolution similar to what happened with Adelle in Chile.
Chile is a parliamentary system with proportional representation, not a first past the post winner takes all system. Totally different animal.
I mean functional what’s occurring with the Trump administration is a soft power revolution.
Yes, executed through an inside strategy of taking over the Republican party. Imagine that.
The point of this discussion is to encourage people to put down the DNC in favor of other organizations like local ones that actually benefit the community by helping the impoverished or to look at other organizations like the DSA or PSL or FSRO
If that were the point of this discussion, it would seem like that might have been something to mention before now.
Roosevelt did great things for Americans while still being capitalist. The needle can be moved left without violent revolution.
“Both sides bad” is weak sauce.
Quick reminder that there were other things going on in the 20s and 30s. You know, the height of socialism in the West, a strong labor movement willing to burn down factories, stuff like that. The New Deal didn’t come because leftists played nice.
I can’t stand this faux leftist bullshit. There’s a reason why I call this right wing nonsense: it impedes the improvement of people’s material lives. We don’t have to like the Democrats in order to reject this absolute nonsense.
And your attitude in turn is why there’s no party who represents the views of most people. You’ve already decided it’s impossible without trying, even though the majority of democracies in the developed world today are not trapped in two-party systems.
No, not the attitude is the problem, the problem is, that the president has mot to win having an absolute majority.
A d I think, US people would have had bigger chances achieving such rule in the voting system, if dems are in power, vs when trumpist are in power 🤗
But proof me wrong 😁 maybe it needs this dictator-shock in order to mobilise enough people to build enough pressure to get such a rule
There are two paths, an inside and an outside strategy. The inside strategy is far simpler, has far greater potential for success, and will harm the least people along the way. Acknowledging that isn’t “giving up”, it’s picking strategy like a grown-up, not some kid afraid to turn down a dare.
without trying
This is the most idiotic thing about third party advocates. There have been third parties running consistently for decades, and we are somehow supposed to pretend that that lengthy record of dismal failure doesn’t exist. Meanwhile, inside strategists haven’t won everything yet, so we are supposed to switch to a strategy with a far worse track record.
somebody said it nicely yesterday in a lemmy comment:
we need to capture the dems and turn them into a socialist party,
just like the fascists captured the reps and turned them into a nazi partyDems will become the second nazi party before it becomes a socialist party. You saw the lip service to Bush.
Bingo.
There’s no way to win political power in the United States without the Democratic Party or the Republican Party.
Socialists and progressives will always have an easier time infiltrating the neoliberal Democratic Party over the fascist Republican Party.
The longer the fascists are in power the harder it will be remove them from power because they will change the rules to maintain power.
The optimal strategy remains to vote for neoliberals when the alternative is fascists because that is how to create time for socialists and progressives to primary neoliberals in the Democratic Party and win general elections.
This meme is a continuation of the accelerationism we saw during the 2024 election. It supports the fascist cause by attempting to sabotage leftist’s best strategy and thus is pro-fascist. The user is prone to self-sabotage as they publicly admitted to not voting for Harris in 2024.
If a fascist drinks at your bar and you don’t throw them out it’s a fascist bar. If a fascist meme ends up in your community and you don’t throw it your a fascist community.
I am reporting this meme. And you all should too. I’m sick of self-described leftists backstabing me and every other minority group they pretend to care about because they’re mad about the 2016 election. I’m a trans, atheist, Jew. I’m close enough to the death camps for my liking thanks. You don’t have to like the Democrats, I don’t, but we do need to vote for them.
I refuse to go quietly. I refuse to tolerate memes that shrug at my right to exist and throw fuel to the fire in the hopes that the fascists kill everyone faster. That’s not a real political position. It’s black pilled bullshit and it can fuck off.
Hope that helps people stop tolerating this bullshit going forward.
I am reporting this meme. And you all should too.
jfc. This isn’t intended as a “fascists on both sides” argument, but you really need to take a moment and look at yourself there.
Well, when you feel the need to preface your argument with
jfc. This isn’t intended as a “fascists on both sides” argument, but
then
you really need to take a moment and look at yourself there.
The fascists want to kill me and people I care about.
Your argument is a pro-fascist accelerationist ad hominen. Accelerationism is self-defeating. We should ban accelerationist posts and comments.
And your argument is a comically reductionist one that calls literally anyone you don’t agree with a fascist and calls for them to be silenced.
The amount of mental gymnastics you have to be doing to consider someone pro-fascist for supporting a left-wing party, just because you’ve decided that you know the only true winning strategy for defeating fascism (which apparently includes silencing dissent).
And your argument is a comically reductionist one that calls literally anyone you don’t agree with a fascist and calls for them to be silenced.
Read my argument.
Your argument is a pro-fascist accelerationist ad hominen.
for supporting a left-wing party
Which party is that? In the US, we have a neoliberal party we should vote for, the Democrats, and a fascist party that needs to lose, the Republicans. I’m arguing we should vote for the Democrats. This meme is arguing there is no hope and that we should all give up and die. That’s accelerationist bullshit. We should all live no matter our flaws. edit: typo
I agree and disagree.
Yes, we will have an easier time infiltrating the DNC, but we should never forget that they are not on our side and will fight against us getting in as much as they can. We should still try, but have our eyes open as well.
Yes, we definitely should practice harm reduction and vote for neoliberals when the alternative is fascists. The part we really need to focus on (short term) is actually getting people to pay attention to and care about the primaries. Too many of us feel hopeless and skip that step. It’s just as important as elections, if not more so. But again- we absolutely have to realize that our enemy when it comes to the primaries is the DNC, not the GOP. They have swore under oath that they believe they have the right to influence and manipulate primaries to get Neolibs on the ballot and keep progressives/leftists off, and the court agreed they had that right. It’s their policy to do so. We simply cannot rely on their help and need to come up with strategies to work around their meddling and interference.
This meme is a continuation of the accelerationism we saw during the 2024 election.
I don’t believe it is. You can still believe in and practice harm reduction, while having a realistic understanding of the situation at the same time. The DNC and GOP literally control the elections. and while it is possible we can sneak a few progressives and leftists past them, we will very likely never be able to take it over completely. They will NEVER vote to end the two party system, it makes them too powerful.
Our best hope is to get as many leftists into the DNC as we possibly can, while at the same time building momentum and support for a viable 3rd party coalition of everyone on the left. It’s also critical we focus on educating the public and combating the billionaire owned mainstream media. We also have to build a network of local mutual aid communities that can serve all of those goals, while showing people that an alternative is not only possible, but preferable to relying on the system.
Once a critical mass of support has been gained, all of the DNC infiltrators can exit for the Left party en masse, not only weakening the DNC, but truly highlighting the differences between the two. At that point the tables will have been turned and people who vote D will be taking away votes from the L’s and allowing the fascists to win.
I believe that is the only way to get an actual viable alternative to the DNC. Like the meme says we will not be able to reform it. Our only hope is to get asses in seats in Congress and force through election reform. IF we can manage to get rid of the first past the post style voting, and end the electoral college, then we would never again have to worry about voting for the lesser evil. That should be our number 1 long term goal.
I think going from recognizing that the Democrats will never be reformed to that means we won’t vote for them over fascists and even worse that makes us pro- fascist is a hell of a stretch- and reporting memes that point out the truth is madness.
The OP publicly claimed to not have voted for Harris. Reform in the meme is referring to the kind of strategies we are proposing. Look at the OP’s post and comment history if you don’t believe me.
I’ve been paying attention and OP worked tireless to sink Harris and Walz during the last election. It wasn’t criticism, OP just wanted them to fail. The OP doesn’t want the Democrats to improve. The OP wants us to hurry up and all die. That’s the madness of accelerationism.
Well I agree with you that is stupid. But that doesn’t mean the meme itself is wrong, a stopped clock and all that.
I don’t want Democrats to die, I want them to learn compassion and empathy, I just see no indication that it’s ever going to happen but it doesn’t mean I wont try.
If Democrats expect more leftists to vote for them, then they are simply going to have to start at least pretending to care about some of the same things we do and stop blocking leftist/progressive candidates from the primaries.
I may not agree with OP’s strategy, but I understand it. Biden was a ghoul. Harris was a ghoul. It made me sick to vote for them. That doesn’t make me pro-fascist.
Well I agree with you that is stupid. But that doesn’t mean the meme itself is wrong, a stopped clock and all that.
Lol. It’s good to know people upvoted this meme because they misunderstood it.
I may not agree with OP’s strategy, but I understand it. Biden was a ghoul. Harris was a ghoul. It made me sick to vote for them. That doesn’t make me pro-fascist.
You don’t have to like Democrats. I don’t.
Thank you for putting that out there. I still cannot see making any other choice when it came time to vote. The too-close death camps you refer to were a very predictable consequence of this administration. I’m just a straight white guy but I really prefer to not add death camps to the world, or to disappear peaceful productive people from their communities, or to significantly harm the lives of millions of young, old, poor, or disabled people. That includes the ones starving overseas because of recent changes.
“But genocide!” we expect to hear in response. And if any dear readers are already thinking that, I want you to take this one fact away from my comment:
The deeply flawed US voting system — the one which forces the two party system on us — is damned near impossible to change via normal legislation and votes.
It’s THE thing. It is that mechanism that lets the red/blue capitalist american machine continue to vacuum up the vast majority of american votes. Go look up just how much agreement there has to be to amend the constitution. And we’re going to ask the people already in charge to get together and agree to kneecap their future political power. You see the issue.
Sure, the media is complicit and most voters are ignorant of the fact that there are better systems in place around the world. It’s true that a lot can be done outside of elected positions. But when it comes to the actual voting ballot, since the system self-corrects (in a bad way) for significant third parties, the expected consequences of each choice were something like:
- Status quo, including any US resources being used for genocide and other shit.
- Genocide Max plan, with 4 free years of Death Camp Prime
- Flip a coin between 1 & 2 above (stay home or vote for a third party hoping it will get them recognition and funding)
- Revolution and replace the system, like right now!
And I want to add a caveat that I’m not trying to blame the people who chose #3 above. Before the election I would disagree with that choice, but now in retrospect we know those people weren’t the reason Trump and Republicans won. I guess it remains to be seen how much of it was the genuine love for Trump the maniacs in this place have, and how much of it was election rigging and cheating BS.
Harris wanted to end the war. So option 1 is better than your argument has advertised. Harris was a huge improvement over Biden in that regard. But I digress.
Every vote counts. The tighter the margins the better. We need the Democrats to do better, as in run better candidates, in order to win, but if they ever do that, there better be a leftist voting block who helped them get into office. Otherwise the Democrats will not feel safe enough to shift left.
Leftists need to be voting in record numbers to shift the Democratic Party to the left. Part of the way we do that is to vote for Democrats consistently. This should be a mechanical choice of who to vote for in the general. It’s hard to do that when posts disparaging fixing the Democratic Party as impossible or so hard it’s not worth trying are going unchallenged on the internet, including Lemmy.
Fixing the Democratic Party and this country will take time and a lot of work. Part of that work involves voting for Democrats.
This should be a mechanical choice of who to vote for in the general.
This is a very easy point for others to attack, but I want to reiterate its importance and how it relates to what I already said.
GIVEN all the stuff I explained about how the nigh-impossible-to-change voting system enforces the two-party system especially at the federal level, the reasonable pragmatic conclusion is that you always vote blue in the general because it is the only way to vote against the actual far right nazi party, and you work to get progressives elected to local offices and in national Democratic primaries.
The optimal strategy remains to vote for neoliberals when the alternative is fascists because that is how to create time for socialists and progressives to primary neoliberals in the Democratic Party and win general elections.
With all due respect, that strategy got us fascism. The terminology has changed, but I could tell close to 30 years ago that this would be the result. Is three decades not enough time for socialists and progressives to “primary” neoliberals? Apparently not, because socialsts/progressives/leftists are lazy, good-for-nothings who are simultaneously powerful enough to swing elections, but too inconsequential to talk about their issues or court their votes.
In other words, maybe these vaunted “centrists”/liberals should’ve stepped up to stop fascism. (And, it’s not leftists who say that Harris “went too woke” and now want to throw trans people under the bus.)
With all due respect, that strategy got us fascism.
That argument is obviously false. We, people to the left of Republican voters, have been losing elections and Democrats since Clinton have been moving right as a result.
Apparently not, because socialsts/progressives/leftists are lazy, good-for-nothings who are simultaneously powerful enough to swing elections, but too inconsequential to talk about their issues or court their votes.
Of course we need more than just leftists to vote. We need to demonstrate a leftist voter block was part of what got Democratic candidates into office. So the Democrats feel they have voters to cover the ones on the right they think they could lose by shifting left.
In other words, maybe these vaunted “centrists”/liberals should’ve stepped up to stop fascism.
Yes. There can be more than one lesson to learn from an election. Democrats fucking up more than us doesn’t mean we don’t have a lesson to learn too. Obviously Democrats have to do better. But if they win without leftists when they do run a better candidate, they aren’t going to shift left. They’ll think they’ve hit the sweet spot and stay put on the political spectrum.
False? We employed that strategy, i.e. voted for Democrats multiple times over decades without demanding that they do better, and now we have fascism. That’s not to say that the strategy caused fascism, but self-evidently didn’t stop it.
The user who made this post made a point of proudly declaring they did not vote for president when the election rolled around last year. Because ‘voters in California don’t matter’. Except we do, because we contribute to the popular vote which Republicans love to use rhetorically to claim everyone else needs to shut up because they have the mandate.
Which they don’t have because Trump didn’t even get a majority of the voters, just the most out of any candidate. But it’s still a free win to them anyway.
Democrats lost elections and leftists weren’t the base consistently voting. Neoliberals and neocons and now fascists are the groups that vote regularly. Accelerationism is self-evidently getting us to fascism faster.
Republicans love to use rhetorically to claim everyone else needs to shut up because they have the mandate.
Republicans also love to completely ignore the popular vote when they lose it, just like they did when Trump lost the popular vote in 2016. Anyone who isn’t a MAGAt and hears that argument and takes them seriously is either ignorant or are being obtuse.
I’m not saying that people shouldn’t still vote, they certainly should but for more practical reasons like getting leftists elected to local and regional offices wherever that is possible.
If you live in a Red State, and in a Red county, and in a Red Township, your vote likely won’t mean a whole lot, but you should still do it, but not because you can throw it back in a Republicans face when they lose the popular vote because they quite literally do not care.
It’s not about what Republicans care about. It’s about controlling the narrative. The popular vote is a tool that can be used to control the narrative. The popular vote is useful and so voting even if it only contributes to the popular vote is still useful. And of course if enough people don’t vote then any state is in play.
It’s about controlling the narrative.
They don’t ‘control the narrative’ that’s what I am saying. They don’t give a single solitary fuck about the popular vote, so who would believe them when they claim ‘a mandate’ because they “won” the popular vote? It doesn’t make any sense.
It’s like if a Nazi came up to you and said you were anti-Semitic for being anti-Zionist, are you going to believe they care about antisemitism? Are you going to feel ashamed by their words or change your position in any way because of it? You would be a fool to do so.
In the 70s, people were making this argument about voting for the lesser of two evils, but it was between two Keynesians rather than two neoliberals. That was 50 years ago. Nixon was to the left of every president in my lifetime. 50 years from now, just how right wing will the Democrat we have to vote for be?
With Gavin Newsom, a Charlie Kirk podcast guest, the choice in 2028 might be two fascists.
We lost to Nixon and it got worse. We lost to Regan and it got worse. We lost to two different Bushes and it got worse. Now we’ve lost to Trump twice and it got worse.
The throughline is that we keep losing to the greater evil and suffering the consequences of things getting worse as a result. That includes worse choices next time as the Democrats move to the right to chase the people who vote for the greater evil. As opposed to going for people who don’t vote or throw away their vote to a third party.
The Democratic Party is going to be rightwing until people learn we have to vote in addition to everything else to get Democrats to move to the left. They will only think about moving left if they win elections. And they only move left when they think they have enough voters to win when they do move.
If we, leftists, want better choices in 50 years we have got to vote in records numbers, so if Democrats get their act together and get someone half-way decent they win. And when they do, they see a leftist voter block got them there.
We elected Carter and it got worse, we elected Clinton and it got worse, we elected Obama and it got worse, we elected Biden and it got worse.
The throughline is that we keep beating the greater evil and suffering the consequences of things getting worse as a result.
I put out half of the fires that started in my kitchen, but my house still burned down! Putting out fires is a sucker’s game.
If even after putting out fire the house burns down you do have to cut your loses and let the house burn down.
That’s what I’m saying, man! I must have turned off the oven when I was done cooking a hundred times. And the very first time I don’t turn the oven off, it starts a fire. So what good did turning the oven off do?
If you turn off the oven and it still catches on fire, that’s not a you problem, that’s a problem with the oven. No amount of turning the knob will make it safe.
