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Luckily I never do mansplaining because I don’t understand how anything works.
Women often complain that when they go to home depot the workers always ask what project they are doing and walk them through how to do it instead of just pointing them to the product they are looking for.
Honestly I’d love nothing more than for a Home Depot worker to ask me about my project and walk me through how to do it. It would save me the inevitable return trip(s) to pick up that one part or tool I didn’t think about.
But I understand that it could be seen as condescending if you do know what you’re doing and just need help finding the thing you already know you need.
So many likes under this toxic shit post, though comments section is full of people with valid conclusions
Neurodivergents be like: “Wait people don’t want to know this? That’s absurd. So anyway, what I was saying was…”
How many “Men” are just ND?
That’s always been my issue with this whole mansplaining shit. Like yeah, it is a real thing that exists, but it very quickly just morphed into “a man (whom I didn’t want to talk to me) told me something” most of the time.
i’ll literally be talking about my own field in which i’d be considered an expert opinion with people who have no idea what they’re talking about and still get accused of mansplaining. i’ve never liked the framing of mansplaining either. it’s such a gigantic victim complex. you’re not obligated to sit and listen to anybody, let alone someone you aren’t enjoying talking to. if you sit and listen to someone’s entire explanation and don’t interject and explain you rather wouldn’t have - that’s not the other person in the conversation’s fault, be they a man, woman, or otherwise. like, you’re a grown ass fucking adult, why do we tolerate behavior that’s honestly kind of childish? the number of times i’ve seen genuine “mansplaining” i can count on one hand versus the numerous times ive seen men trying to earnestly participate in discourse shuttered out in the name of “justice.”
this is how i kind of feel, it’s always just been a way to shut men down bc they said something you didn’t like or agree with. it’s rhetorically lazy, like you can’t even respond to what’s being said so you default to some weird ad hominem over their penis. not saying mansplaining doesn’t happen, it does, but it’s certainly not nearly as prevalent as people act. and frankly, even when it does, who the fuck cares? you’re not a hostage, and if you were, their monologue is the fucking least of your worries?!?
How many women are? They have been notoriously under diagnosed, so what? We still have to live and adapt to this world, regardless.
I got my autism diagnoses at 39 years of age. Not that it does any good besides validating many of my lived experiences.
Consider how many women are ND and have been forced fed the notion that we must sit down, shut up, focus, stay on task, do our duties, be strong women, never rock the boat, never be weird, keep a clean home, raise our children right, get paired with the ND boys in class who do actually get diagnosed so as to keep them on task, understand that boys will be boys ad nauseum.
If I could adapt without any sympathy others can, too, man or woman. Communication is practiced. It must be nurtured from a young age regardless of any roadblocks you’re born with or born to.
What I noticed was that most of my best friends were diagnosed. We clicked not only because we were similar but also because my teachers paired me with them and it brought us closer for it. Meanwhile, I struggled in school myself. I also had to hold the hands of my friends and be their keepers. It makes me upset that they had extra help while more responsibility was foisted on me when I needed help myself and never got it.
How am I a bartender who can absolutely relate to what she is saying and how he responded while still, also, being ND myself? Is it any wonder I never went into secondary schooling with the experience I had from grade school to highschool?
One of my patrons is so much further on the spectrum than I and I would never condescend to her while she is speaking about anything. I’m truly happy to hear about anything she has to talk about.
But if someone, man or woman, comes into my establishment and spoke to me in the same vein he is, I’d respond the same way she did because that response is something I learned to adapt to my surroundings regardless of a diagnosis.
He fell right into a trap she set and he did it all by himself by typing it out and hitting send. If he’s eloquent enough to respond the way he did, he’s deserving of the answer he got. There is no excuse here that would make me forgive his response.
If you’re going to use your diagnosis as a crutch, be off with you. You can disagree, but not anywhere in this little text post is there any indication that he even is NB in the first place.
What she was saying is something that women struggle with NB or not. Men also have their own struggles. Both are valid and there’s no reason to be defensive about her response unless you’re guilty of doing it yourself. But then you’re just projecting.
Uhhhh, this post was about mansplaining…
How many “Men” are just ND?
None. Men are cool to hate, get with the program.
It’s super easy not to mansplain. When you bring up a subject, just ask if they know about it, then segue into a conversation where you can both participate.
Eh. As much as I want that to be true, there are some people who will never admit they don’t know something.
Good idea. Keep educating people just in case they need your opinion and don’t know it.
/s
Okay but what if I’m excited to talk about dinosaurs? Is it mansplaining because I didn’t know the lady im talking to is a paleontologist ?
And people wonder why many men are afraid to talk to women.
Nah, some people might get offended right from the get go if you start talking about the basics with them, but it’s only a problem if you continue to insist that you know better than them once it becomes clear they have an understanding of the topic. Like, if you’re excited to talk about dinosaurs and the person you’re talking to is a paleontologist, but you pivot to talking about deeper aspects of the topic once you realize, you’re all good! Even better if you start asking them questions to learn from their expertise.
On the other hand, if you realize that they are a paleontologist and completely disregard that, insisting to them that you actually know more than them, or continue trying to explain base concepts, then yeah, you’re a jerk.
She was being sardonic. He was being defensive, borderline hostile. This observation is subjective, I know.
When I’m unsure, I just ask. Like this: Are you being sarcastic or satirical right now or or are you being a Shawn?
He was being defensive, borderline hostile.
He was correct. He was direct. There really isn’t any other way to handle an asshole when they’re celebrating their own assholery.
There’s a difference between being excited to share something and explaining basic concepts. If you excitedly talk to a paleontologist about dinosaurs, they will most likely excitedly talk back.
“Mansplaining” is specifically when you are trying to tell someone else about their area of expertise and insisting you know better than them. For example, if you told a paleontology how to look after fossils.
A lot of it, like most human interactions, is about how you approach it and your tone of voice. I don’t know what your level of social skills are, but if you’re excited to talk about something then most people who are in that field of study would be excited to listen and talk back. Just be ready to learn and accept the possibility that they may know more than you
These are just dumb people, doesnt matter man or woman, we have them on both sides
Women: “Don’t be condescending”
Lemmites: “What the fuck”
“Okay that’s wrong, and here’s why…”
As a man with adhd, I do this all the time to men and to women, and I’ve been accused of mansplaining. I’m working on it, but I promise it has nothing to do with sexism. I just think everybody needs to know all the details so rhey can reach the same conclusions as me.
And for what it’s worth, I really appreciate when someone does the same for me on a topic I don’t know about. But I understand how frustrating it is when someone does it on a subject I do know about, so I always try to gauge knowledge before info dumping. What catches me off guard is when someone isn’t interested in learning. They don’t know everything, and they are just OK with walking through life, knowing they don’t know something.
Point is, I really do appreciate the grace presented in the post. I don’t mind if you’re being condescending if you forgive me for oversharing.
I will happily let someone go on about something that excites them because I get it. I feel like there are at least two different points being made here and each camp will not listen to the other.
I will hide out in my studio sometimes to get peace from my boyfriend. It’s not that I don’t love him. I adore him!! He’s treated me better than any other man I’ve been with.
But we don’t have conversations. It’s a long standing issue with us that we are always working on. I listen to his monologues. Even if he has good intentions and asks about my day, most times I can’t get even halfway through something I need to share off my chest before it distracts him and I’m listening to him for 3 hours. Sometimes he’ll even ask, “you know what I mean?” “You get where I’m coming from?” And I’ll take a breathe to speak aaaaand shut my mouth on it because he doesn’t wait for a response.
It can be overwhelming but we talk about it respectfully in the end. I lie, sometimes I get overwhelmed and exasperated. Then he will knock or text me to talk things out. Sometimes he gets upset when I need alone time and then I go to him and we talk. We ultimately apologize to each other. He’s an amazing man and he calls me his goddess. We put up with each other’s bullshit because we are both imperfect and still come back together in the end and absolutely adore each other.
The difference in this particular post though, is my spouse wouldn’t respond the way this dude did. Then again, I don’t hinge my entire opinion on what woman on the internet says and what another man responds to it with. The warp and weft of gender, sexism, and neurodivergence, cannot be wrapped into one neat package of absolutes.
Everyone has their opinions but they can also all be at least a little right.
This isn’t a you problem. You haven’t been mansplaining. This is gender war shenanigans and people being sexist towards men in the name of feminism. Gender in western society is honestly cooked at this point.
Eh, it’s a me problem of oversharing, and I can appreciate that my perspective isn’t a universal perspective. How I’m perceived is as much my concern as my intention. I can’t control what other people feel, but I can appreciate their perspective and respect their feelings without taking it personally.
If someone feels like I’m mansplaining, I want to know about it and try not to do that again. That’s not an indictment of gender relations in modern society, that’s just courtesy.
Quit being reasonable! Gender is cooked! Withdraw from society! It hates men!
That wasn’t my point at all. A lot you are good at jumping to conclusions based on not a lot of information instead of asking clarifying questions.
I am saying gender roles are cooked for both men and women because they say a lot of shit that doesn’t make sense. Like the idea that men are always more logical and women are always better parents. Even the thing about colours and skirts don’t make sense. If anything skirts are better for male anatomy than trousers are. Gender norms and heteronormativity make no sense. They as concepts are cooked. It’s lead to lots of dumb laws and injustice on all sides.
If you had just said gender norms are cooked, I would have responded differently. You narrowed this to gender in western society is cooked. There is no other society where there aren’t bullshit gender roles, and when gender is brought up in a west vs non-west context it is almost always done by people who conclude that gender is bad in the west, but not in other places where more “traditional” ideals about gender are still more highly enforced, like asia, russia, eastern europe, africa, etc.
Sure there are many other societies where gender is also thoroughly and completely cooked to higher levels than it is in say UK, USA, or so on such as Saudi Arabia but it’s a very broad generalisation to say it’s cooked everywhere. There have been and are matriarchal societies even that have very different norms than we do. Not all societies are heteronormative either. I don’t know all the societies in the world. I am pushing it to even say all western societies are cooked.
I guess my point is, the idea of roles based on gender, in and of its self, is BS
Maaaan. Why’d you have to go and do that? I was nodding my head at your words until you clarified it’s the woman folks fault.
You immediately made yourself a part of the gender war shenanigans with everything you said right after.
Men do shitty things. Women do shitty things. That’s it. There are always exceptions to the rule, there are always stereotypes that too many don’t fall into. The bad apple stick out because they upset you and the memory sticks. We all come across asshole every day.
I want to give you a hug honestly. And that’s not being sarcastic or condescending. I just got off work and as much as I want to say what I want to say to this type of talk, I don’t. It does no good.
Having a good talk, sharing a drink or a smoke together and hugging/fist bumping/offering my jukebox credits is way better than man hating just because I deal with assholes all day. So I’m offering my last hug of the day to you because I’m sure you don’t truly believe the woman here was speaking against you specifically or even every man she’s ever encountered.
Men aren’t the devil incarnate. Neither are women, though.
That’s not what I am saying. Gender roles in general are cooked and it hurts both sides. I never said this is the fault of women. It’s not on them that they couldn’t open a bank account for decades for example, or all the sexist things men have done over the centuries. You’ve taken one thing I said and twisted it to a completely different conclusion.
It’s things like men like blue and women like pink, or women wearing skirts but not men. None of these things are actually biological, just like the idea men and women do different jobs. We are cooked because we have invented daft roles for genders in the first place. Don’t get me started on things like the idea women are better parents or that men are inherently violent. The idea that men are inherently better at certain jobs and tasks as well, especially ones that have nothing to do with physical strength.
If the reason you are giving information to a woman is not that you are assuming their ignorance based on the fact that they’re a woman, you’re not mansplaining. Period.
The sexist assumption is a core ‘component’ of the phenomenon.
Also, said assumption can be sex-related, but also all sorts of other things. That’s why I’ve adopted the term “splaining” as an umbrella term for it. “Mansplaining” unfairly creates the misandric perception that only men do it, and that the only motivating assumption is ‘because she’s female’. Both are inaccurate. I myself have experienced this based on several different assumptions throughout my life, based on my sex, age, even where I live.
Is it ‘splaining’ to assume you know more than someone else on subject X because they’re younger? Yes. Because they’re white? Yes. Because they just started in an industry you’ve been working in for 10 years? No.
And so on.
I really hope this term catches on at some point, lol.
P.S. Also, an assumption as described above is literally mandatory for it to count. If I’m explaining something to you after you’ve overtly demonstrated your ignorance on that subject, or I’m correcting a demonstrably false statement, that’s not any kind of ‘splaining’, regardless of what either person’s sex/race/age/etc. is.
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This is the type of attitude that makes me not talk to humans. Sure I might know something about it but if I tell you then I am an asshole apparently. So…figure it out yourself.
In my experience, nobody has any problem with you sharing your knowledge with them if (1) you’re an actual expert (and not just an “armchair expert”, (2) they actually want or need someone to tell them the information they’re looking for, and (3) you express it courteously and kindly.
In pretty much any case, you’re not likely to ever get good results if #2 isn’t true. Maybe they want to figure it out themselves. Maybe they don’t actually care. Maybe they’re making a joke that people who really are experts would get!
Even if you don’t have #1, you can get a long way with #3 (especially if you frame it as you’re a fellow learner sharing what you’ve gleaned so far, such as by giving them info and asking for something in return—“oh, I found out that you can do X and it works really well, but I could never figure out Y, how’d you do that?!”).
Is she explaining a basic thing herself?
I mean they aren’t wrong, she’s patronizing them with condescension they can’t perceive because of their clear deficits.
I mean yes ADHD and Autism are clear deficits but you don’t need to be a dick about it.
That’s a great observation!
I catch myself doing this all the damn time, and that’s precisely what it is for me.
I suspect that’s what it is for many of us. Most of us don’t intend condescension, but I expect that doesn’t make it any better ;)
Maybe it’s that there is nothing wrong with a man explaining something that he is excited about and that there is also nothing wrong with women feigning attention in these situations because it’s a social response to promote group thinking as opposed to individual effort?
Maybe it’s only natural and we don’t have to hate ourselves for it? Sure you might not be happy to play that role every single time, but you don’t have to because you are free to choose.
Also, you can isolate yourself from other people if you do not wish to have discourse with men or women that will no doubt involve them explaining things to you that they are passionate about or excited in the moment.
I would certainly not criticize the woman or the man for these behaviors because I see it as human.
Well shit, I think you just helped me discover the origins of my introverted trait. I think I might isolate myself to keep from being that person!
Great job exploring your feelings! You are a superstar!
For me, I convert that feeling into XKCD’s lucky ten-thousand wherever practical. It transforms the situation from a ‘me vs you’ conversation to an US vs crazy reality.
Could probably also maybe slightly disarm it with “did you [want to] know about (x)”
So I’ve noticed this post isn’t going over very well. I’d like to add a female perspective.
“Mansplain” isn’t meant to say you info dump or over explain a thing. It means that you assume you know more simply based on sex. It’s a type of misogyny that’s more typically overt in boomer culture, but it’s got a following in the whole Tate movement. I have rarely noticed it outside of that generation in the wild.
Now…Guys do infodump, which leads to this confusion, because a lot of people dislike that behavior too. Statistically women do speak less in mixed groups. Put it all together and it’s easy for people to over generalize a very specific behavior. It does happen, but compared to previous generations it’s not as common. It definitely occurs to women who work in non-traditional fields and take on non-traditional roles and I suspect that the same is true for men.
Imagine going to school for years and years. You have your doctorate. You’re in the field for 10 years. You work in field that is 93% male. You find a new job, good pay and reputable. The boss on the daily explains things to you. Some things that are just basic science and not even directly applicable to your work. No other new hires get these interesting and informative chats but what a coincidence, all the other new hires are men. I never called it “mansplaining,” it’s just sexism. One cute word doesn’t capture the malice that is often behind it and makes men who view themselves as harmless defensive. Of course there is pointing out systemic sexism that is ingrained in natural behavior but its important to note the difference in a simple conversation and singling out a woman to explain something while assuming she doesn’t have anything in that pretty little head of hers. Personally hence, I’ve noticed it used most often when the woman you’re targeting is smarter than you and this is a subtle power play to remind her of her place.
Bruh, I had a colleague who transitioned FTM and he would talk about this all the time. Constantly being told the most basic shit over and over really fucked with the guy before he transitioned, he said not having to deal with it felt like a breath of fresh air.
Mansplainer perspective here. No, it doesn’t come (for me) from a belief that a woman can’t do anything, it rather comes from an instruction from a childhood that boys should always help and defend girls. If I were in place of that boss, my unconscious intent would be to lower the woman’s burden.
I catch myself doing it and stop it but it’s the hardest pattern I have ever corrected insofar.
I really appreciate this perspective and it really does shine light on how one is raised based on their gender. I can think of a multitude of examples from your perspective and also from who you are responding to.
I’m absolutely positive that, regardless of how hard I tried not to, I did raise my son and daughter differently. All I hope is that I did a little better than my parents did for me and my brothers and, should they have kids themselves, my children do a little better than I did, and so on and so forth.
Today is not that day but maybe when I’m dust, society will slowly limp along and evolve. Conversations like this may seem divisive now but I think they’re needed in the grand scheme of things.
Some humans in the future might wake up in a better world because of people like you. Keep it up!
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No! We must hate men!
It means that you assume you know more simply based on sex.
Isn’t that misandry to assume the man is a sexist because he’s shitty at explaining things or communicating generally you know like a stereotypical man. We can’t be both incredibly myopic and excessively insightful of nuance.
Let me be more clear:
An operational definition of “mansplaining”: If a man assumes he knows more about than a woman explicitly because he is a man and she is a woman. He explains to her x,y,z from this perspective.
Example: A man always talks over female peers, and explains answers during open ended discussions, because he believes he is better and more rational at open-ended discussions than his female counterparts regardless of any evidence of this, or even in spite of it.
Non-Example: A man informs a woman or others about a topic he is more interested or informed in, at a (possibly annoying) length.
It isn’t misandry to call out this bad behavior. Yes it cuts both ways, but we are talking about this term specifically.
That explanation requires prior knowledge or post hoc knowledge otherwise you’re simply saying it’s based on sex or race.
How is this substantially different then screeching “dei” at every minority that mildly inconveniences you?
It wasn’t an explanation about how to assess whether someone is mansplaining or not – it was a definition of what mansplaining is.
Yeah and I’m asking them to use their definition in comparison, how exactly is saying “he’s mansplaining” substantially different then “dei hire”.
Yeah and I’m asking them to use their definition in comparison
To be clear, no you weren’t. Hence the confusion.
But since you’ve clarified: obviously using any term to unfairly accuse someone of being or doing something is a bad thing. Is that a real question?
That’s exactly what I was doing hence the twice repeated question, you can claim a lot of things but that isn’t one that has legs.
Correct, both are based on assumptions that are as offensive as the assumption that they’re mansplaining or a dei hire or whatever.
My point is that you can’t use either without yourself being bigoted enough to come to a conclusion based on bigoted assumptions so how are they substantially different?
I just gave you a behavioral definition with examples and non-examples. I’m sorry, I don’t know how else to simplify it. I can only assume you’re willfully not understanding. Have a good day.
That’s a neat dodge. How is it different then assuming someone is a dei hire instead of simply an incompetent employee?
I’m sorry, I don’t know how else to simplify it.
Maybe if you were a man, you could explain it better.
/s
Yeah because clearly seeking understanding means I’m a bigot and yes I see your /s and I’ll say that doesn’t make it much less of a shitty thing to imply.
my /s was to show that this is the sad joke line someone would actually say like it was a truth. I’m on your side…
I’m really nerding out on synthesisers right now, and 99 percent sure she doesn’t know what after-touch means, or why I’m excited that I picked up a late 90s synth with a good keybed and full midi.
My lady friend doesn’t own anything that looks like a keyboard, so I’ll apologize for the over explanation, then proceed to explain why I’m so stoked.
Essentially, I got, ‘I’m glad that makes you happy!’ Which I know means shit up and move on.
If she wants to know more about modular synthesis or rompers, I’m sure she would ask. I wouldn’t force an explanation on anybody.
I had a woman at a car service counter take in my car once. She was dressed nicely and clean so of course I assumed she only did paperwork.
I treated her like a human. Explained my car symptoms and where I think the problem is. (Car electric went nuts and lost power steering when i hit a puddle.)
Holy crap she knew her stuff. I mentioned it felt like the alternator wasnt performing right and undervolting, but since it’s only when driving threw a puddle it had to be a component siezing and pulling on the accessory belt. She agreed that’s a good place to start and ran through all the bits in that system as well as thier diagnostic steps planned.
I figured she knew about cars but it felt like she was a full on mechanic and was the manager dressed up.
Treating people with basic humanity should be the bare minimum, but sadly it’s a foregone conclusion.
Wouldn’t foregone conclusion mean that people do that?
Why are people so surprised when everyone starts to favor talking to AI’s…
Infodumping male here, I generally do it because in my mind context is important to make sense, and of course I do it regardless of gender. It honestly feels like a detriment, as I feel myself taking too long, but don’t really know how to shorten it. I do it when explaining issues at work or when talking about stuff I like etc, but have audio has times where I tried to be brief then got the wrong info across or forgot to mention something important or just right make sense. It’s like I can’t find the right balance between explaining and dumping.
I didn’t find this post as an insult or anything though.
Tbh, that’s the main reason I stopped talking about things that matter to me with women unless they are asking me for it and keep asking during the conversation.
If I infodump on a guy, that guy thinks it’s because I’m maybe overly excited about my thing.
If I infodump exactly the same way on a woman, it’s because I’m mansplaining.
The only way I know around that is to not infodump on women. I pretty much trained myself to become an introvert around women.
Yup, i do the same, avoids bullshit.
I kinda overdo it though. Woman’s about to cross a road with her headphones on, running the pedestrian red light with intense traffic, not bothering to look either way? I’m not gonna mansplain, that’s offensive, she knows what she’s doing.
I have the same problem. I work in IT and when I was on the help desk I was one of the “go to” people if someone needed help with a call. There were a couple times I heard new hires complain that I was “mansplaining” to them because I never knew where someone was coming from in terms of technical ability so when I answered their question I began at the beginning to make sure they understood. I did the same thing regardless of gender but I can see how someone felt like I was being condescending if they weren’t familiar with me. It did always seem like it was people who didn’t want to be there that would complain about it too. On the other hand several people that went on to get promoted off the help desk sent me thank you notes for teaching them so much so it kind of balanced out.
I had an experience with a male coworker. I am a man too.
He asked me because he had a USB and he wanted to put the windows iso onto it but it didn’t work. Eventually he used the media creator (or whatever it is called) but he asked if I knew what the issue was. After a lot of questions, I had figured it out.
He wanted to create a bootable USB by drag and drop the iso onto the usb and the usb was formated in fat32, so the iso was too big for the filesystem.
In that conversation, he said multiple times that he knows about this or that and that he knows computers, e.g. when I asked about the size of the usb (maybe it was a very old USB with like 4gb storage). And I could tell how he was slightly offended by some questions.
Also please note, he was “following” the Microsoft tutorial
Edit: typos fixed
Yea, tons of stuff like that is why I did things the way I did. If I start at the beginning instead of trying to jump around and figure out where you messed up it’s usually much more efficient. There were people who I was confident in their ability enough to skip around but if they were new to me we were going to cover the entire process to be sure.
IDK, I often find myself mansplain and not infodump. I am not from the boomers, I’m not sexist in any rational way, I’m pretty left leaning, I am though a piece of shit sometimes.
I think that’s how most people are. They don’t identify as sexist, but they do sexist things because of conditioning. No one ever thinks they’re a bad person, best we can do is try to be aware of our bullshit and keep learning.
No one ever thinks they’re a bad person
Well, there are people who do identify as sexists. Hell, the latest Jubilee episode shows that there are people identifying as fascists. All I wanted to say is that I do not believe that men and women have fundamentally different capabilities.
Nevertheless, I do sexist things and it’s disgusting and I have little to no control over it. Hopefully I will grow to control it
Without getting into philosophy, people who call themselves fascists and sexists don’t necessarily feel they’re “bad” because of it.
Yes, I made a generalization, but this isn’t a term paper and I don’t have references.
Info dump goes both ways, men usually info dump about things, women info dump about people. Its echoed in men vs women photography of trips also. Men typically photograph things (here’s a car/bike/castle I saw), and typically women photograph people.( here’s me and my sister, here’s a court yard with people dancing)
I noticed this with my parents.
All my dad ever sent me pictures of is architecture. Or a tank, he also likes a good tank.
I have no end of pictures on my phone of funny looking houses in Austria or somewhere.
this post seems to be going over well, given the number of upvotes.
It’s being upvoted, but the vast majority of comments are not in agreement with the person in the screenshot.
There also seems to be a consensus that the term is misused a lot.
We probably shouldn’t use “agreement” as the guage of success?
Discussion is way more valuable
I had read a lot of the comments and wondered if it might be misconstrued
It would be cool if we could keep sexism off lemmy. This isn’t reddit.
Mansplaining ord is sexism itself. Agree with you we should discourage such things
Gender wars stuff is the worst. I would be in favour of it being banned.
Yeah. Too bad all the incels came over.
Agreed. Gender in many societies has gotten too cooked at this point. IDK how this gender war shenanigans is ever going to end.
I hate how the term “mansplaining” has mutated from “When a man condescendingly explains a subject to a woman who is an expert in that subject, because he assumes being a woman makes her ignorant”, which is certainly a valid thing to be upset about, into “Whenever a man explains anything to any woman” , which is sexist and divisive.
The term is still pretty sexist as originally used though. It inherently implies that it’s a characteristic masculine behavior. If you disagree, allow me to demonstrate:
I just came up with this term, “womancomplaining”, it’s when a woman exaggerates a minor inconvenience into a targeted victimization.
How does that term make you feel? Does it seem to imply that I’m talking about a specific, isolated behavior? Or does it seem more like I’m implying this is a characteristic feminine behavior? Would it feel less sexist if I insisted I wasn’t talking about all women, but if you take offense then maybe you feel defensive about being a womancomplainer? What if I told you to calm down, because if you aren’t guilty of it then I’m not talking about you?
It still seems pretty sexist, doesn’t it.
Misogynists and misandrists are both awful. It’s kinda funny cuz they’re essentially the same type of person but on opposite sides
I think the insulting part of mansplaining is the assumptive nature of it.
This can all be avoided by a soft check before explaining something, rather than assuming a boy/girl/chimp wouldn’t know the first thing about welding/cooking/crochet/throwing feces.
Whenever I have the urge to info dump about a topic I’ll probe with a, ‘You may very well know more about this than I, please let me know before it becomes tiresome.’ 10 out of 10 it works, and usually both of us learn something.
That often doesn’t really work though.
Take for example the classic tech support situation.
- Person with problem: “The remote connection to the device doesn’t work!”
- Tech support: “Are you sure the device is turned on?”
- Person with problem (getting angry): “Of course it’s on. Do you think I’m stupid?”
- Tech support: “Is it the device I see on the background of the video call?”
- Person with problem: “Yes”
- Tech support: “The lights are not on. Please double check if it’s turned on.”
- Person with problem: “Oh, I forgot to plug it in.”
A soft check would have lead the tech support to accept that the device is on, instead of digging further, and it would have lead to potentially hours of wasted time.
The same thing often happens in such situations. The person infodumping does so to clear up potential underlying misunderstandings that a soft check cannot catch. That’s not evil or mean or condescending. It’s done with the clear understanding that the person you are talking to likely knows 95% of the things you are saying, but that the remaining 5% might be an issue and a soft-check fails every single time for that kind of issue.
But it’s also a reverse issue. Many women reflexively assume that any time someone infodumps that person is only doing that to them, because they are women and because that man thinks that women are dumb. Even if that man does the same with other men.
The amount of times i had to explain to phone company customers that their phone line malfunction, which they were reporting from said phone line, was monetary in nature…
I just asume whatever I say is dumb and wrong, so I don’t explain things anymore, I let people find out the hard way, and then act like I didn’t see it coming.
I don’t really see people use the term mansplain to mean anything other than men being condescending. While I do see it used “incorrectly” sometimes, I have no reason to believe the person using it doesn’t believe the man is being rude/condescending. Just because I personally believe something isn’t condescending doesn’t mean the person doesn’t view it like that (and whether the person is actually being condescending is a totally different topic). I see people call people assholes when they’re not being assholes. I see people call people jerks when they’re not being jerks. It’s not really a new thing.
In short, I don’t believe anyone is using the term differently, it could be that you don’t think the man doing the explaining is being condescending but they do, or it could be that the term really is used differently and I just haven’t personally seen it (always a possibility).
I have no reason to believe the person using it doesn’t believe the man is being rude/condescending. Just because I personally believe something isn’t condescending doesn’t mean the person doesn’t view it like that (and whether the person is actually being condescending is a totally different topic).
There are a lot of insecure people in the world, to whom any explanation feels condescending. Are we really suggesting that the perception of the recipient is more valid than the intent of the subject? That’s kinda the whole problem.
Is it mansplaining for a man who’s been a physical trainer for years to explain to a woman that she’s about to seriously hurt herself with improper form? He knows what he’s talking about, she’s definitely going to hurt herself, his tone is polite but urgent, and the intent is sincerely to help her avoid that. Is her feeling that he’s being condescending by criticizing her form enough to make him a mansplainer?
it could be that the term really is used differently and I just haven’t personally seen it (always a possibility).
I have personally seen it. I’ve personally been accused of mansplaining when correcting someone on something I know a great deal about, and immediately after watching them do it very wrong. Honestly I’ve probably seen it used defensively to delegitimize the man in question much more often than I’ve seen actual mansplaining.
I’m not saying it’s not a real phenomenon, but it seems more often to be a term used to shut down legitimate communication.
Your observation is valid, but it would be fair to admit that as you’re not on the receiving end, you might not notice all the occasions women get real condescending mansplaining because it doesn’t touch you personally as much.
I have personally seen it. I’ve personally been accused of mansplaining when correcting someone on something I know a great deal about, and immediately after watching them do it very wrong. Honestly I’ve probably seen it used defensively to delegitimize the man in question much more often than I’ve seen actual mansplaining.
I’m not saying it’s not a real phenomenon, but it seems more often to be a term used to shut down legitimate communication.
I’ve seen this one, too. There are women out there who are using this concept (and the concept of “old white men”) to shield themselves from every form of critique, even if they were totally wrong. There are men out there who are behaving idiotic, but there are also women out there who are behaving idiotic. And I feel that the concept of mansplaining is getting abused by idiotic women and is therefore used against “innocent” men who really want to help. Esp. in the internet the concept is often used as “you are not allowed to say anything because you are a man” and that totally is not helping anyone. Women are getting frustrated because of course the other side will react negatively when you are communicating like that and men totally will think that those feminists are really big idiots.
Are we really suggesting that the perception of the recipient is more valid than the intent of the subject? That’s kinda the whole problem.
When the topic is “do people use the term mansplaining to describe men explaining something without being condescending”, yes.
Is it mansplaining for a man who’s been a physical trainer for years to explain to a woman that she’s about to seriously hurt herself with improper form?
This is why I said
and whether the person is actually being condescending is a totally different topic
For the topic we’re talking about (do people use the term to describe men explaining things while not being condescending), if the woman in that example thought the man was being condescending and thought she knew better, she’d be using the term properly as you describe it should be used. That’s the point I’m trying to illustrate. In her mind she views the man as being condescending. In her mind she believes she knows better. So she’s using the term correctly.
Now to be clear, I’m not saying it is mansplaining. Nor am I saying the man shouldn’t be doing it in that scenario.
In her mind she views the man as being condescending. In her mind she believes she knows better. So she’s using the term correctly.
Now to be clear, I’m not saying it is mansplaining. Nor am I saying the man shouldn’t be doing it in that scenario.
That’s my point. It’s being used far too liberally. I’m not saying they don’t feel justified in using it, I’m saying that the standard being applied is far too low, and it shuts down legitimate communication. It has the built in defense of delegitimizing any attempts at clarification, because obviously the mansplainer is just mansplaining how he isn’t mansplaining.
To go back to my analogy:
Would you likewise agree that a man would be justified in accusing a woman, with an accurate and valid complaint, of womancomplaining simply because he felt she was exaggerating? And couldn’t he then go on to deflect any clarification she offers as further womancomplaining?
I’m not saying these people don’t feel like they’re using their terms correctly, I’m saying that it shuts down communication and accelerates the weaponization of accusation. It contributes to the gender divide, and has certainly helped to nudge men towards man-o-sphere radicalization.
You say that’s your point but,
Would you likewise agree that a man would be justified in accusing a woman, with an accurate and valid complaint, of womancomplaining simply because he felt she was exaggerating?
I’ve made it extremely clear, multiple times that I am not commenting on whether I believe anything to actually be mansplaining. By your definition of how people should use your hypothetical example term, the person in your example would be using it correctly.
I haven’t been discussing whether I think it’s a good term or bad term, that’s a different and unrelated topic, I am only talking about whether people “use it differently” now than they used to.
We agree that “mansplaining” means “When a man condescendingly explains a subject to a woman who is an expert in that subject, because he assumes being a woman makes her ignorant”.
I’m saying “condescendingly” is defined by intent, even subconscious.
You’re saying “condescendingly” is defined by perception, even inaccurate.
When I say it is being used differently, I’m talking about the shift from my definition of “condescendingly” to yours.
Although, there’s also the “who is an expert in that subject” modifier on “woman” that has definitely been dropped in contemporary usage as well.
No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying there is not some objective way for someone to know someone else’s intentions. Say you believe something is a fire hazard. You say “that’s a fire hazard.” Turns out it’s not a fire hazard. Have you used the term fire hazard differently than everyone else? No, of course not! You still used it to describe something you believed was a fire hazard, you were just mistaken about whether it was a fire hazard.
I’m saying people who use the term mansplain aren’t using it differently, they actually do believe the person talking to them is condescending.
You’re trying to make this about whether someone is correct in their assessment of whether someone is being condescending. I’ve said it multiple times that I’m talking about how people use it and not whether people agree that they’re correct.
If a woman says a man mansplained something and she believes the man is being condescending, then she’s using the same definition you just said we agree on. Full stop. I don’t believe women use the term differently. It does not matter what the intentions were. I am also not saying she would be right or wrong. Because all I have been talking about is how the term is used.
If you hear a woman say something was mansplaining but you don’t agree that the man was being condescending, that’s okay, there’s nothing inherently wrong with that. But it doesn’t mean she was using the term to describe something that wasn’t condescending. It just means you disagree that the man was being condescending.
I don’t mean to address any of your points with this reply, I just want to point out that men regularly accuse women of “womancomplaining” or “being too emotional” or “being hysterical.” A lot of women were lobotomised because of this kind of thing.
Yes, and it’s a bad thing. That’s my point.
Since the gendered nature of the term has been brought up, your comment makes me think of the word “bitch” compared to asshole or jerk. All three terms get used entirely subjectively, but I think most reasonable people agree that “bitch” is at least a bit more crass and tasteless due to its more gendered nature. I know we’ll never get rid of ugly words when using words to hurt and offend, but I think it does show that it matters if a term is gendered. So maybe when people are offended by a term being gendered, we should listen no matter their gender. And I think people who like using those terms, especially when told they’re hurtful, should have a long think about what feelings they get from using them.
It just made me think so I wanted to write that out.
I always like to think of notions like “mansplaining” as social weapons. They can be used against injustice, and they can be used to create it; the outcome varies on the morality or cognitive ability of the person using it.
The judges are out on how it is being used; however, one can be delightfully certain that the Dunning-Kruger effect is in play somewhere whenever the term is used. Which party - who can say?
The post says “basic things”
Tricky - basic is very contextual. Basic to an electrician isn’t basic to a plumber!
Right, so a man talking to a woman in the same field shouldn’t explain what is basic in their field. That is mansplaining. Mansplaining is contextual.
Basic to who, the man or the woman? How does one know what another deems basic? What appears basic to you is not likely to be so for me, and the converse of this is also likely true.
Better said that mansplaining is a post-hoc label applied to an event with a presumption of intent on the speaking party made. One can liken it to “are you looking at me pal?”, but more socially acceptable.
I think every field has things that are pretty universally understood to be basic. If you and I are in computer science and I’m explaining how a keyboard works to you unsolicited, that’s pretty basic stuff and I would be mansplaining.
I’ve had arguments with colleagues over things I assumed were basic and blindingly obvious.
Never assume someone knows something.
It is used much more freely than that. I agree that it’s a problem when it actually happens, but I’d argue the accurate use of the term is not the typical one.
I agree that it’s not always used accurately. I read your other responses and I honestly used to have the same beliefs as you, but I really tried to observe and listen openly the past few years and it shifted my perspective.
Mansplaining is a real problem. If you try to observe social interactions in detail, you’ll notice it more and more often, you’ll even catch yourself doing it. A lot of men really talk very differently to women than other men.
When so many women come out and talk about this issue, they’re not all wrong. I find it kind of ironic that a lot of times, they’re dismissed because men feel the urge to explain and tell them they’re over-reacting.
Sidenote as a response to one of your other replies: I believe that the way the message is perceived is more important than the intent of the message. My intent with this reply is to help you try to think and observe this issue more openly. If it is perceived as attacking your beliefs and putting you on the defensive, then it obviously wasn’t the right message to get through to you. I don’t mean to be condescending, but I’m sure these same words may be condescending to some people. I’m just not the right person to get through to those people on this issue.
Mansplaining is a real problem.
I get that, I do not disagree. My main complaints are:
1 With the term itself, because a la my “womancomplaining” analogy, it shifts the focus from “this man was being a sexist, condescending asshole” to “being a sexist condescending asshole is just a thing men do”
2 With the overuse which is used to broadly dismiss legitimate attempts at communication. It’s definitely a problem when random guys try to explain a woman’s specialty to her, not so much when an man with expertise tries to correct a woman who’s definitely wrong. The problem isn’t that this behavior is being called out when it happens, I’m totally fine with that (though the term itself is still sexist). The problem is that it’s being used to defect legitimate communication.
I believe that the way the message is perceived is more important than the intent of the message. My intent with this reply is to help you try to think and observe this issue more openly.
I appreciate that, but I’ve done that. I understand that it’s important to be empathetic, I try to myself whenever possible. But communication breaks down when you pander to everyone for the sake of the most sensitive perceiver. No one can control how someone else feels, and you can’t know who is going to feel what way. If everyone treated each other in the gentlest way possible no one could effectively communicate.
Conflict is necessary for improvement. You cannot progress without some disagreement with the current state. If someone is wrong, and no one wants to hurt their feelings by correcting them, they will continue being wrong. In another message, I used the example of a person about to lift weights with a terrible form that was sure to cause them avoidable injury. An expert onlooker holding their tongue for fear of seeming condescending spares the lifter the feeling of being talked down to, but replaces that with serious self-injury.
I don’t mean to be condescending, but I’m sure these same words may be condescending to some people.
This is a perfect illustration. You’ve been nothing but patient and gentle, you haven’t said anything condescending, but you’re still worried that I might think it is, even after I’ve shown clear objection to that kind of hypersensitivity. It’s infantilizing in its own way to treat everyone as if they can’t handle the slightest disagreement without being offended. The whole premise of moderating your communication to avoid offending the most sensitive perceiver grinds effective communication among equals to a halt.
I can understand your first point, but being sexist condescending assholes seems to be more of a thing men do, and obviously this was experienced by enough women for someone to coin the term and have it become an immediately relatable experience. You could definitely rephrase it to be something less sexist like “condes-plaining” (work in progress), but it loses the inherent nature of pointing out that it is something women are experiencing from men. I also agree with you that overuse of the term would be bad. I think I disagree that the term is being overused. Every term is used incorrectly in places. I know this is anecdotal, but I haven’t seen or experienced the term being used inaccurately all that often.
For the second half of our discussion, I think I should clarify that I was talking from a one-on-one conversational perspective, not a lecture hall, group discussion, or a friend group. I think those environments are very different and while perception also matters there, it would be a different kind of discussion. A one-one conversation like a gym trainer calling out someone with bad form could go like: “You know, that’s terrible form, here’s how you do it the right way” versus “Hey, excuse me, I noticed your form isn’t safe and could lead to injury. Would you like some help?” I think both ways get the point across, one of them is a lot nicer than the other.
I believe your communication should pander to the person you’re addressing, if you are trying to have a constructive conversation. You can disagree with someone and present it in about a million different ways - some of them might be offensive to that person, others might be well-received. The reason I mentioned that my words may be condescending to some people was not out of worry or fear of offending you, but as a point that different people expect communication in different ways.
I think you’re doing the same thing subconsciously, you’re saying things in a concise and respectful way such that you believe will be perceived well by me. You could say the same thing in ways I’d find incredibly rude, and we would not be having a constructive discussion. Now if someone finds what you’re saying offensive when you’re not trying to be offensive, then you can either rephrase yourself or accept that you won’t be able to effectively communicate with that person one-on-one.
To be fair. The only place i see mansplaining ( first kind. The second one is just to try finding a stick to kick a dog. ) is online. I see and talk to man … also i see womancoplaining online all the time.
Actually, no. I love explaining things, it’s part of my personality. But soo many women told me that I should stop mansplaining, that nowadays I just don’t talk to women anymore because of the fear that they see me as a mansplainer. My girlfriend has to live with that, but otherwise, I hate talking to women because of the stupid mansplaining thing. It’s sexist as fuck and I hate the term.
So there are woman irl that really stop a dude talking with the id he is msng
